Israel's Meir: Somber Hope

Premier Golda Meir had looked pale and fatigued as she sat in the Knesset waiting for parliamentary approval of her new government. But she appeared vigorous and rested last week when she and Time Inc.'s Editor in Chief talked in her Jerusalem office. Mrs. Meir joked about the problems of forming a government. But when the conversation turned to the Cabinet's first priority--disengagement with Syria--Israel's 75-year-old leader became markedly more somber. Her views:

Q. What is the present status of disengagement?

A. [Syrian President Hafez] Assad was not too delighted with the proposals we gave to Mr. Kissinger. The feeling is mutual about Assad's proposals.

We are prepared for an agreement on disengagement with Syria. But we are not prepared to throw in any bonus for Assad's attack on us in October. We are not prepared to give him something beyond the 1967 border. We should be talking now only about the results of the October war. He has villages in the territory we captured, and he should be concerned about them. But he wants us to get off the Golan Heights entirely. There is no one who can honestly say to us, after seeing the situation on the Heights and listening to Assad, that we should come down. We have been down there before. For 19 years we were not on the Golan, and our towns and settlements in the valley were nevertheless shelled, despite the U.N., despite demilitarization. Anyone who wants to hurt Israel cannot resist the temptation when they are up there and we are down below.

The crux of the matter, and I say this with sorrow, is not really the territory or boundary. It is a question of whether they have acquiesced to our presence or haven't. And we have a right to be skeptical. No other country in the world has this problem--neighbors who are dedicated to the idea that you must be destroyed.

Q. How much of the present situation is due to Israel's refusal to return the Golan Heights after the 1967 war?

A. No honest person can guarantee us that if we had come down from the Golan Heights after 1967, the Syrians would not have kept attacking our settlements. Outsiders are allowed to speculate about this. But they have no responsibility for the security of Israel.

Q. What about negotiations with Egypt?

A. I hope [President Anwar] Sadat deserves the credit he is getting. We have always hoped that an Arab leader would emerge who felt he owed something to his people, who would realize that he had the choice of trying to destroy us and paying with the suffering of his people, or letting us be and building up his own country. On this we build our hopes: that Sadat doesn't want war, at least in the near future.

Q. When will the second stage of negotiations begin?

A. We are prepared to come to an agreement. But we want to see if Sadat really starts to operate the Suez Canal, if he really starts rebuilding the cities along the canal, if he really becomes involved with economic development. A man who does all that will not begin a war that would destroy it all.

Q. Are further negotiations with Sadat possible before an agreement with Syria?

A. Yes, as far as we are concerned. But we know that it is difficult for Sadat to be all alone. We are not interested in making things more difficult for him. It is true that Israel has complexes and traumas, but the complexes are based on facts and realities that cannot be denied. I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said I thought there would not be more war. We certainly hope there won't. But it would be criminal to build on that. We have gone as far as we have with Egypt because they did not win the war. If they had won there would be no agreement.

Even in Europe and the U.S., where there is no war, armies and defenses are maintained. In Israel, where the threat of war is a present reality, defenses and vigilance must be all the stronger.

Q. What about negotiations with Jordan over the West Bank?

A. We are willing to negotiate. But this is a question many people in Israel are very sensitive about. There are deep religious significances and important historical connections involved in this territory. I think that the majority of the people in Israel are ready to say that, for peace, we are willing to make a compromise. But before we make a settlement on the West Bank, we must put the question to the people in a vote.

Q. What of the Soviet Union?

A. I don't believe that the Soviet Union wants to destroy us. But in order to gain their foothold in the region and satisfy their own interests, [the Russians] are prepared to give the Arabs anything they want to destroy us. If you want to be cynical, you could say the Soviet Union needs Israel because that is the only way they can make King Faisal a Marxist.

Q. Would you sign a mutual defense pact with the U.S. or accept a joint U.S.-Soviet guarantee?

A. Why ask for something that is difficult to give? Can you imagine an American President in the 1970s sending an American Army to protect us or anyone, no matter how sorry they might feel for us? If the day comes when we are dependent on others for our protection, we lose our independence.

A joint U.S.-Soviet guarantee? That's too good--Brezhnev's protecting us. I cannot begin to dream of such an idea.

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