Now the Real Debate Begins

By Evan Thomas

Mondale survives at Dartmouth, but the pack is still baying

The debate itself lasted three hours. The debate over who won still rages.

No sooner had the eight candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination stopped vying for the attention of TV Talk Show Host Phil Donahue, waving their arms like excited schoolchildren, than their camp followers began vying for the attention of the press to declare victory.

"Spectacular!" crowed James Johnson, Walter Mondale's acting campaign chairman, relieved that the front runner had not fallen. "It makes Gary Hart the emerging dark-horse candidate," declared his deputy campaign manager, David Landau. The debate transformed Jesse Jackson from "black candidate" to "national candidate," claimed Jackson's national-issues coordinator, Frank Watkins. John Glenn's organization quickly turned the adulatory reactions of six New Hampshire voters into a radio ad. A little too quickly: the voters' reactions had been taped before the debate. The ad had to be pulled off the air and redone.

Actually, there was no clear winner or loser--unless, as some leading Democrats lamented, it was President Reagan. The debate, sponsored by the House Democratic Caucus, was held on the snow-covered New Hampshire campus of Dartmouth College. For the first 1 Vi hours, all the candidates responded to the evenhanded questioning of ABC Newsman Ted Koppel (see PRESS) with measured campaign statements. In the second 1 1/2 hours, most were goaded into sharper exchanges by Donahue, who hopped about with his microphone soliciting questions from the audience and throwing in some zingers of his own.

For the candidates, many of whom have been laboring in relative obscurity, the debate was an opportunity to define their appeals before a public-television audience of perhaps 10 million. It also gave the pack a chance to test Front Runner Mondale. The most dramatic challenge came at the 21/2-hour mark, when Glenn took to the attack. As Mondale explained how he was going to cut the federal budget deficit, Glenn interjected that Mondale was spouting "the same vague gobbledygook of nothing." Waving his fist, Glenn protested, "There wasn't a single figure attached to that..."

"Hold it," interrupted Mondale.

Glenn charged ahead: "Let me finish. I'm disgusted and tired of all the vague promises." Now Mondale got worked up. "Point of personal privilege!" he shouted. But Glenn would not yield: he blamed the Carter Administration for its "21% inter est rates" and declared, "That's why we lost the White House." Shot back Mondale: "There's just been about a six-minute speech, all of it baloney."

Mondale had resisted a wide-open debate precisely because he worried about such a confrontation. But most observers agreed that he did not suffer any serious wounds. Said fellow Candidate George McGovern: "It's clear that Mondale gained more than anyone else from the debate by not being hurt during it. As the front runner going in, all he had to do was not make any mistakes, and he didn't."

At moments, though, Mondale sounded more petulant than presidential. Several times, his challengers scored solid debating points. The former Vice President has built his early edge partly by handing out lOUs to Democratic constituencies like labor, minority groups and Jewish organizations. "Fritz, you cannot lead this country if you have promised everybody everything," chided Hart. Mondale lamely replied, "America is nothing if it isn't promises." When Reubin Askew attacked Mondale's support of protectionist legislation that would require that cars sold in the U.S. contain a high percentage of U.S.

labor and parts, Mondale huffed, "It's about time someone stood up for the American worker." Fired back Askew:

"What about the American consumer?"

While Glenn managed to show flashes of fire and a grasp of issues, few Democrats thought that he gained at Mondale's expense. Some Democrats felt Glenn hurt himself--and the party--by pinning the blame for high deficits on Jimmy Carter as well as Ronald Reagan.

Said a Western Governor: "He hasn't shown that he has the makings of a good politician." Glenn's aides countered that the exchange with Mondale made their candidate look "forceful."

The Glenn campaign was jolted at midweek, when a Washington Post-ABC News national poll found that Glenn "apparently did himself the least good" in the debate. Among voters who watched, Glenn trailed Mondale 49% to 5%, compared with 51% to 16% among those not watching. Furious, Glenn's camp argued that the polling sample (including only 160 registered or likely Democrats in New Hampshire) was far too small to be meaningful, a point with which most polling analysts agreed. Glenn campaign aides have been telling reporters that the Gallup poll was the most reliable measuring stick of their man's strength. By coincidence, the very next day Gallup announced results of a poll conducted mainly before the debate:

it showed Mondale a whopping 31 points ahead, 47% to 16%.

The candidates behind Mondale and Glenn had little to lose in the debate.

Two-thirds of the voters polled by the Post beforehand said they did not know enough about Hart, Askew, Alan Cranston or Ernest Rollings to have an opinion. The skirmish in Hanover gave the second-tier candidates a chance to shape opinion--with mixed results:

> Hart appeared to benefit. Said Landau:

"Our volume of telephone calls has skyrocketed." Hart's staff was the only one to urge New Hampshire residents to watch a repeat airing of the debate last Wednesday. Citing private polls, Hart's aides claim that voters would like a fresh alternative to the front runners. With Glenn apparently slipping, Hart smells a chance to become Mondale's principal challenger, possibly even finishing second in New Hampshire. At Dartmouth he was articulate and aggressive. But even Landau conceded that "perhaps Gary Hart said 'new ideas' more than he demonstrated any."

> Jesse Jackson was already well known for his civil rights efforts and for winning the release of downed Navy Flyer Robert Goodman from Syria. For the debate, reported TIME Correspondent Jack E.

White, Jackson shaved the tips off his Za-pata-style mustache and dropped his usual rhymes and alliterations. His aim was to become a "general market" candidate appealing to more than just blacks and the poor. To a degree, Jackson succeeded.

"He seemed 'statesmanlike,' " said Iowa Democratic Vice Chairman Barbara Leach, a Hart supporter. After the debate, Jackson stepped up his attacks on Mondale, trying to drive home the message that he is a genuine alternative to the front runner, not just someone out to spur black voter registration.

To Jackson's chagrin, the Democratic National Committee flatly refused at week's end to open up the delegate-selection rules, which he claims favor party regulars like Mondale. Jackson's organization has been able to document only about $100,000 of the $400,000 raised so far, in order to obtain federal matching funds, and has missed the filing deadlines for the Nevada, Rhode Island and Puerto Rico delegate selections. Moreover, Jackson has been enjoying a honeymoon, not only with the press but with the other candidates. They have been respectful of his bid to become the first black to contend seriously for the nomination, and mesmerized by his brilliant speaking and charismatic style. In the debate and on the hustings, Jackson's positions have yet to be vigorously challenged.

> Senator Ernest Rollings of South Carolina is perhaps the only candidate who is as quick-witted as Jackson, or more so. He is unafraid to take risky positions, like backing a restoration of the draft and freezing all Government spending for a year to reduce the deficit. But during the debate his wit turned nasty when he snapped at Askew, "You listen! You've got a tic in your ear too." Askew has a slight facial tic.

Said a friend of Rollings': "It was as bad as James Watt talking about the woman, the black and the cripple. It revealed a meanness." To be a contender, Rollings will have to finish in the top three in New Hampshire, an unlikely prospect.

>Former Florida Governor Askew may have earned sympathy from Rollings' attack, but he appeared too eager to overcome his hopelessly low poll standing.

Last week he failed to get the one vote he needed most: the endorsement of the right-wing Manchester, N.H., Union Leader, which has considerable influence among the conservative, pro-life Democrats courted by Askew. The newspaper lambasted all the candidates with a pungent headline: SPARE us THE NITWITS FROM NEVER-NEVER LAND.

> Senator Alan Cranston of California has struggled to overcome his age (69) and bald, gaunt appearance. When a woman at the debate asked him why he dyed his sparse hair, his smile looked a little forced. He sheepishly answered that he was trying to keep up with Moderators Koppel and Donahue. Cranston's one-note campaign for a nuclear freeze appears to be melting, though his antinuke supporters could be an effective weapon in the Iowa caucuses, which favor organized activists. Cranston said last week that he would almost surely quit the race if he did not break out of the pack in Iowa or New Hampshire.

> George McGovern, the party's badly beaten nominee in 1972, seemed gentle, avuncular and irrelevant. His most memorable statement was to urge his colleagues not to gang up on Mondale.

An Anyone-but-Mondale movement does not appear to be gathering, at least not yet. Said Hart's campaign manager, Oliver Henkel: "We're not in a stop-Mondale mood." Still, many Democrats fear that Mondale would be no match for Reagan.

They contrast the image last week of Reagan making a televised plea for peace with the Soviets with the spectacle of the Democrats wrangling in a college auditorium.

Said one top party official: "Democrats standing in a circle shooting each other won't beat Reagan." If the Democrats have compelling alternatives to Reagan's policies, they were not able to present any in the din at Dartmouth.

His lead in the polls notwithstanding, Mondale still has not generated much intensity among voters. "He's being too cautious," says Pat Butler, an editor of the Fairmont (Minn.) Daily Sentinel. "If he doesn't get more specific, he might blow it." As the debate showed, Mondale has some hard questions to answer, such as how he really plans to reduce the deficit and pay off all those promises to interest groups. His high perch is fragile. Beneath him, the hounds are milling and jumping, barking to be heard. --By Evan Thomas. Reported by Hays Gorey/Washington and Christopher Ogden/ Chicago, with other bureaus

With reporting by Hays Gorey, Christopher Ogden, other bureaus